This will be interesting to see. Would love to get a real idea of how things analogue things are moving in a digital world.
Major Analog Vinyl/Turntable/Cartridge Survey Underway!
Most of us are convinced that the media regularly underreports record sales. It seems that Nielsen/Soundscan's numbers can't possible be correct, nor does it seem likely they have the ability to dig deeply into the sales portals where much of the vinyl activity occurs.
In a "vinyl summit" meeting I attended last winter, with representatives of record labels and pressing plants, I volunteered to try to ascertain the real numbers. Unfortunately, most privately held turntable manufacturers are under no obligation to divulge their sales figures, nor are they eager to do so for reasons that should be obvious.
I suggested that perhaps I could get cooperation by promising to keep the numbers confidential, releasing only aggregate numbers (total worldwide vinyl LPs produced, total turntable and cartridge sales).
I'm not sure we can ever get accurate sales numbers but at the meeting we reasoned that pressing plants were not pressing records for their amusement and that if they were pressing, people were buying. So if we could get pressing plant numbers, after allowing for a certain percentage of inventory, we could get a pretty good idea of how many records were sold in 2012 and so far in 2013. Ditto, turntable and phono cartridge sales.
To that end, I recently sent this email to dozens of contacts worldwide:
Dear industry colleague:
As you know, both turntable and vinyl sales are hideously underreported by the media, even as it occasionally produces stories about the "vinyl resurgence."
In a meeting I had last winter with executives of pressing plants and record labels, I volunteered to attempt to get some real aggregate numbers that can be used in an industry-wide press release to tell the actual story.
My experience has been that individual companies are hesitant to divulge sales numbers for various reasons, most of which are obvious.
So I offered to try to persuade turntable manufacturers and record pressing plants to divulge their numbers to me, which I promised would never be made public on an individual basis.
Instead, aggregate numbers would be provided to the media that would more accurately reflect the tremendous growth this business has seen over the past few years.
I recently put out feelers to a few major turntable manufacturers as a test and I'm happy to say I got numbers that were well beyond my most optimistic expectations.
I am hoping their willingness to cooperate will encourage you to do likewise!
So I'm emailing you to find out if you would be willing to tell me (depending upon your business):
1) How many full length LP records (and separately, 12" singles) your plant pressed in 2012 and so far in 2013.
2) How many turntables your company manufactured and sold in 2012 and so far in 2013.
3) How many phono cartridges your company manufactured and sold in 2012 and so far in 2013.
This email is being sent to manufacturers, as well as to importers and online retailers who have direct connections to manufacturers to help get the information as well from companies to which I lack a direct connection.
Thank you for your support in this project!
-Michael Fremer
editor, Analogplanet.com
senior contributing editor, Stereophile
P.S.: I understand your hesitancy to divulge to me your numbers. Please trust that they are safe with me. I am convinced that the aggregate numbers will produce an enormous amount of world wide press that will benefit everyone, large and small. Thank you.
The email list includes 29 pressing plants. Within minutes of sending the email I received an automated response from a French pressing plant informing me that they are over-ordered and understaffed and to please try again in August. That's a good sign I'd say!
I have already received responses from two of the largest turntable manufacturers and the numbers were impressive!
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COMMENTS
Great idea
Submitted by Elegal on Tue, 2013-07-09 12:04
Just another way in which Analog Planet is making the world a better place.
Used Vinyl
Submitted by DigitalIsDead on Tue, 2013-07-09 12:16
I don't think new vinyl sales will really give a clear picture. Let's face it.... new vinyl is grossly overpriced, which keeps sales lower than they should naturally be, and seldom delivers audio quality at the same level as the price. There are exceptions, such as MoFi, MOV, and a few others. Rhino and others are opportunists that are doing nothing but hurting this trend. Here in Portland, stores that are serious about music sales are ever expanding their used vinyl stock.... If I wanted to know what analog/vinyl sales really were, I'd be focusing on them.
"opportunists"
Submitted by Michael Fremer on Tue, 2013-07-09 13:50
I don't agree with you. New vinyl is not "grossly overpriced," almost always delivers audio quality at the same level. Why is Rhino an "opportunist" label but Mo-fi isn't?
"Love Forever Changes," beautifully reissued by Rhino, cut from analog masters by Chris Bellman and pressed at RTI costs $24.99.
"Blood on the Tracks" equally well done by Mo-Fi and pressed at RTI costs $29.99.
I'm sure Mo-Fi's licensing deal requires a bigger royalty so let's just call the prices even. So why is Rhino "opportunist" while Mo-Fi isn't?
Reissuing old titles correctly isn't cheap. Most new vinyl of new titles is reasonably priced. I don't consider the new Mavis Staples vinyl plus CD "overpriced" for $23.00 including shipping. Or the Laura Marling two LP set for $25 "grossly overpriced".
I welcome used record store expansion of course, but it will be new music and new records that will drive vinyl forward in the 21st century. Used records will be extremely important for kids wishing to explore old music on original pressings of course but with used record prices spiking, it's good to have reissues at $24 when originals in good shape cost much more and are often not as good sounding!
Between new record production and turntable sales, we'll have a much clearer picture.
Thanks for contributing.
It's a good point
Submitted by Martin on Wed, 2013-07-10 00:42
It's a very good point you make as a "by the way"; the reissues, cheaper than originals in good shape, often sound better. A big change from several years ago when reissues, such as there were, were worse sounding as the originals.
Overpriced? Compared to what, exactly?
Submitted by CCFK on Wed, 2013-07-10 06:28
The "vinyl is overpriced" argument drives me crazy. An $8 LP in 1982 is about $20 in 2013 inflation adjusted dollars. Atlantic in 1960 had retail prices of $3.98 and $4.98 on their LPs, which is about $31 and $39 respectively, in 2013. Current vinyl retail prices are well within the historic range. Throw in a digital download card and you're ahead of the game.
vinyl survey
Submitted by optoman on Tue, 2013-07-09 13:44
Great idea but I wonder if manufacturers will tell the real figures. They may actually tell you higher figures because it will promote the idea that sales are increasing. I am not a financial expert but I suspect that a truer figure may be extracted from information that limited companies are obliged to give to Companies House in the UK or the equivalent in other countries. There may also be reports available from companies that research different markets. These kind of reports are available at a high (but not prohibitive) price for the business I'm in, so they may be available for the Hi Fi/record manufacturing industry.
Trust
Submitted by Michael Fremer on Wed, 2013-07-10 11:50
I am going to have to believe what these companies tell me because these privately held companies are under no obligation to tell anyone anything about these numbers. I know the owners of most of these companies and they know me. They know that I'll know if they are grossly inflating their numbers because I and everyone who observes this business has a reasonably good idea of if not the exact numbers, the proportionality between companies. I would expect Pro-Ject to have the biggest number among speciality audio turntable manufacturers (as opposed to mass marketers like Numark and ION) and so far my proportional expectations are being met, though the numbers are bigger than I expected. And I believe them.
I hope you get all the responses you need.
Submitted by Jim Tavegia on Tue, 2013-07-09 14:26
I think the numbers are much higher than reported as well, but we'll see who responds.
I did like the response of the busy plant who said to write back in August. Maybe unemployed people should look to a pressing plant for work. Start a new career. Maybe QRP could open a small plant here in Hotlanta. Shipping costs for lps IS a problem. This is when size is a problem.
I wish new lps were cheaper as well, but that is only because I don't make enough money to support my "LP habit". That is my problem not the industry's. I have bought many at the $19.95 price point and they have been excellent.
used vinyl
Submitted by Jody on Tue, 2013-07-09 15:09
I think it is a fact that all media outlets covering the so-called 'vinyl resurgance', ignore the biggest corner of the vinyl marketplace - used records. I buy probably 5 times as many used records as new. There are probably more used records sold on ebay on any day of the week, than new records sold at every record store/online store, etc. What about that?
Smaller Acts?
Submitted by SimonSlacks on Wed, 2013-07-10 13:05
I like the plan but couldn't it be skewed by smaller acts that press records that won't sell? It's sort of like counting bands by counting drum kit sales. It sort of neglects the fact that some never get used, were poor decisions etc. If a pressing plant says they pressed 1,000,000 records last year it could mean that 10,000 bands each pressed 100 records for their tour and none of them sold or it could mean they pressed all the top sellers that sold... and just about every situation in between. It would be interesting to compare scans on select titles to see what was manufactured of the same titles to get a better idea of the accuracy of Soundscan. Maybe you can get a label to tell you what they pressed, shipped, and scanned on a few select big titles?
I agree with Michael on new
Submitted by Time_Stand_Still on Wed, 2013-07-10 01:54
I agree with Michael on new vinyl record prices. Though some can be quite pricy most are not out of line when one factors in inflation and the fact that it still is a smaller market share than back in the 1970's and early 80's. I can easily recall up here in Canada as a young teen in the early 80's paying on average $9.00 to $12.00 per LP. Audiophile pressings were easily $16.00 to $20.00. An easy inflation factor from the early 80's to now would be to take the prices you paid on avg. for LP's in the early 80's and multiply the price you paid then by 2.5 to 3 times. You will then find that most new LP's are still reasonable. No not cheap but fair price to value.
Living In The Past
Submitted by Paul Boudreau on Wed, 2013-07-10 06:12
I agree - I remember that the first "audiophile" LP I bought (MoFi "Magical Mystery Tour") cost me $20 in 1982. I think that many people who complain about the price of new vinyl are living in the past.
"Living in the Past"
Submitted by Michael Fremer on Wed, 2013-07-10 11:51
Be careful Paul, that's what the digital folks say about ALL OF US!
Record prices
Submitted by DLKG on Thu, 2013-07-11 19:34
I think that records seem to be so much more expensive because it seems we need to pay for so many things these days that we never had to pay for. For instance Internet, television, cell phones. The money gets tight for records.
Petrol
Submitted by SimonSlacks on Wed, 2013-07-10 08:37
The prices are very fair for new vinyl. Keep in mind it's a petroleum based product that has not gone up in price nearly as much as gasoline has. Plus a lot of nickel is used in the process of making most records and the price of nickel has gone through the roof.
I'll Bite
Submitted by Paul Boudreau on Wed, 2013-07-10 06:15
"Unfortunately, most privately held turntable manufacturers are under no obligation to divulge their sales figures, nor are they eager to do so for reasons that should be obvious."
Ok, I'll bite - it's not obvious to me. Would they perhaps be embarassed by how few they sold? That wouldn't seem like a negative to me - how many turntables does one person buy in 10 years, anyway?
Another good point...
Submitted by Martin on Wed, 2013-07-10 08:14
when you buy a really good turntable, like an SME or a Rockport or a top of the line VPI or a Brinkman, a Simon Yorke, etc. These turntables are so well made they will likely outlast their owners. These turntables will outlive the day when their owners fuddle off to that great gig in the sky or lose their hearing or whatever. It must be like one turntable every ten or fifteen years or so...
Snail mail
Submitted by alphaGT62 on Wed, 2013-07-10 15:02
A lot of people who are swamped with emails are apt to delete anything that looks like a survey. If it were me, after a time, I would send a nice official looking letter to those companies that failed to respond to the email, give them a second chance to participate.
Good luck with your quest
Russell K.
Richmond VA, USA
Good Luck on your quest.
Submitted by vinylbuff on Wed, 2013-07-10 15:52
I have to believe that turntable and lp sales are climbing steadily. Doesn't RTI, QRP, Pallas, and the Record Plant in the Netherlands ( can't remember their official name at the moment), pretty much press around the clock? I've bought quite a few new reissues, along with a new Rega RP-6 this year. The problem that I see is brick and mortar stores are gone and the vast majority of those who would buy new turntables and lps don't know where to look? They don't know that Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, and Elusive Disc even exist!! My former lawn service guy saw my collection and said his son was looking for lps and didn't know where to start. I gave him a list of dealers (online) and sold him 2 duplicate Hendrix lps I had. There has to be a way to educate those that are looking or don't even know that the vinyl resurgence even exists.
I know it probably sounds far-fetched, but I think it would be great if there was a magazine of some type that was nothing but music releases and associated products. New releases, reviews, where to buy, etc....... Educate the masses...... I'm done rambling........ sorry.
New Vinyl is not overpriced
Submitted by cement_head on Thu, 2013-07-11 03:31
Hello,
I buy used vinyl, but I also buy new vinyl. AND, I have noticed that new vinyl prices are dropping. The new Iggy and the Stooges is $15.99 in my local record shop. Regina Spector's "Live in London" was $12.99. In fact, I've paid some higher prices for used vinyl that I want to collect. Last record store day, the Miles Davis re-issues were $20, and they sound pretty good - maybe not the definitive pressing, but (a) I can never afford the definitive pressing and (b) they rarely come on the market in my city.
I think this is a great idea. I know people that have bought a turntable because they can buy used vinyl at reasonable prices. I recently rebuilt a 43 year old Thoren's TD 150 MK II AB turntable and purchased a new Grado cartridge - lot's of work, little cost and now I have great sound.
The 2011 vinyl remasters of Pink Floyd's WYWH and DSOTM are stellar, RSD's 2013 release of Joan Jetts "Album" on yellow vinyl was very cool, and the White Stripes "Elephant" were all purchased by me (new) for about $25 ~ $30. When I was a teenager, vinyl records were $15, counting for inflation, that's not too bad. And the quality of the new vinyl is awesome. You gotta love the fact that Black Sabbath's new record is a record, and not just a CD.
I would also suggest a web counter for people to (anonymously) register their vinyl purchases (both used and new) by country. That might really get people's (big record companies) attention.
Please continue the good fight!
Record, Turntable, Cart. Prices
Submitted by 39goose on Thu, 2013-07-11 08:09
The quality of a lot of re-issues are WAY better than records of the 70's and 80's and much better than re-issues from the last 20 years, don't forget to factor that in. You can get a great turntable for 400.00-500.00, my first direct-drive Dual from the mid 70's was 129.00 without a cartdrige. So, I say good turntables and cartridges are CHEAP in todays dollars and the records are very reasonable. Some re-issues do not sound good, my favorites are from Analog Productions and now with Quality Record Pressings, they are "over the top" FANTASTIC.
Price of Vinyl
Submitted by bmwnutt on Thu, 2013-07-11 08:26
I can remember the going rate for a record in the late 70's was five or six dollars. Converted to today's prices, that would be around $15-$18.This is only slightly less than the price of many of the new records at Hastings in Santa Fe NM.
Mike, Who's doing your data
Submitted by Anxietyprone on Fri, 2013-07-12 04:20
Mike, Who's doing your data collection and analysis? If you happen not to get adequate participation you may consider identifying a (neutral, non-audio) third party that can guarantee anonymity. Especially if you find there's a gap in the data due to a major player not participating. However, I believe that it would be in the best interest of the manufacturers and the industry to provide valid accurate numbers.
I think to get a complete picture it would also be useful to obtain data which includes sales for the past three to five years. Provide you with data identify where the markets are worldwide, along with data for the past 3-5 years, and any other demographics that could help you create an accurate reading of not only where analog has been, but where it is now and where it may be going. Manufacturers keep this information.
I also think component manufacturer (phono preamp), and analog accesories manufacturers could equally fit into this project telling the status of the analog industry through their sales figures. Finally, the big retail players like Music Direct, Acoustic sounds, NeedleDoctor, etc. could also provide related data.
Best of luck on this. You have my full interest and support.
Vinyl sales
Submitted by Hummer on Fri, 2013-07-12 00:11
Just a thought......It is going to be fairly difficult to get an accurate idea of vinyl sales as there are so many outlets including the second hand used market. Ok you can maybe capture the New vinyl sales to some degree but how about all those second hand sources ie Discogs, small independent record shops, car boot sales etc. I am sure that with the huge amount of vinyl kicking around the world a lot more is being sold both old and new than cannot be quantified. I am finding new sources of vinyl all the time and believe me I am so happy so much is available!
Good luck with your survey.
29 record pressing plants?
Submitted by JJZL on Fri, 2013-07-12 05:19
Dear Mr. Fremer
I am pleased to know that there are at least 29 active record pressing plants.
I was trying to write about the question of active pressing plants but was unable to find accurate information.
Is there any place where I could check?
Regards
JJ Zarate
LP's from digital masters
Submitted by rbbert on Tue, 2013-07-16 14:35
How will you separate out LP's made from digital masters (either originally digital or with an intervening digital step, like many of Music On Vinyl's LP's. They would seem out of place at "Analog Planet"?
Any advances on the results of the survey?
Submitted by JJZL on Sun, 2013-08-11 06:44
Dear Mr. Fremer
Are there any preliminar results on the survey? I feel worried that unaccurate data are being used to reach conclusions as in this audiogon article:
http://hub.audiogon.com/2013/07/is-vinyl-making-a-comeback/
Thank you for your great effort and persistence. It has been inspiring for me
Best wishes
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