News

I can't complain about the Stones 64-69 vinyl set, and it's digital. But I do agree with you that they should do their best to make it AAA. I guess it's a "wait and listen" type of thing.

Well that sucks! I was just talking with a friend about preordering those. Are you just thinking out loud or do you seriously think WMG would allow Chad and Analog Productions reissue them at the same time?

This is word for word from John Davis, the engineer that did the digital transfers.

Forum user asks:

John, great to see you back among us. Here are three questions for you.

1. Were you involved with cutting the vinyl?
2. Were the vinyl versions cut from the analog tapes or your hires masters?
3. I noticed when doing some EQ comparisons of the iTunes versions that Led Zeppelin II was quite close to a pbthal needledrop of the famous Bob Ludwig RL cut of Led Zeppelin II. During your mastering did you have access to an RL cut or was it a target?

John Davis answer (emphasis mine):

Hi Stefan - 1 - I cut all the vinyl myself
2 - Have to check with Warners re their campaign cant get them upset
3 - No we didnt use a target - just tried to make the albums sound as best as we could

============================

I think that speaks volumes as to the source of the vinyl. Michael I suspect you are correct about this.

Given that the super deluxe version comes with a 24/96 download card my guess is that the records will be cut from a 24/96 master. Just an assumption but an educated one.

The cynicsm of the music biz is only 2nd to that of the energy industry.

can you explain how much extra effort and $$ it takes to do AAA vs mastering/cutting from digital? i'm trying to understand why Page & Co. would make choices that so clearly disrespects the music & die hard fans. 

WTF?!?!?

Just curious, but why does Don Was get so much more slack for doing vinyl from digital masters than Jimmy Page? At $24.95 these are priced closer to the "affordable" end of the spectrum than the premium reissue part of the spectrum, so they seem to be aimed at the same segment of the market, rather than the premium audiophile market. At that price I wouldn't doubt it will be easy enough to get a bunch of the singles for $20 or so, which if they're from high-res and sounds good seems fair.

Certainly seems fair if the logic is rougly the same: that they're thinking audiophiles bought the presumably AAA Classics several years ago at premium prices, so they want to offer something for the people who didn't shell out the big bucks for those and who want to hear Zep on vinyl and own the cool art work in a large format.

Don't get me wrong, AAA is the grail. I'm a premium vinyl customer and that's what i want and I'm willing to pay for it. When I want Blue Note I buy the Music Matters 45s. I already bought all the Zeps from Classic and I still pick up originals when i can find em clean (and let me tell you that isn't $25 a pop either!).

 Just sayin, if Blue Note gets a hall pass for that plan, why not Zeppelin. Give em a listen and see if they're worth the $25.

C'mon.  It's Led Zeppelin we're talking about here.

If the record companies continue to cut from digital masters so that they can hold out for a better sounding release years later... see the Beatles re-issues among many others.

That's the exact same question I've been asking via the email I send to WMG every day since I found out about these reissues.

Seventeen emails and no reply yet, maybe Warner's is having trouble with the coffee machine in the office and it's keeping them from checking emails.

Perfectly understandable, I get distracted sometimes too...

I sure hope not ! Jimmy Page announced that he working on these remasters in NOV 2012. We surely have not waited all this time for  something thats not going to be top notch and very special. Mikey, I want you on them like a tick on a dogs ear ! I look forward to any and all the information you can get on these new remasters. Thx

It's long since become a buzzword, from publicists and other marketers who don't know, and don't know that you know, what it should mean when referencing LP production.

The digital intermediary step is part of the accepted, standardized and understood workflow. A generation or so of engineers have grown up using it. And that is more of a threat to good sound then even the ubiquitous penny pinchers who will never value what an archive of sound is.

One question I have is, what does all of this say about the Mothership LPs? Good, bad or indifferent, hey aren't very old ... are these new LPs even a different mastering, and if so, WHY?

"Remaster" has become a word that causes me to wince, because it's astonishing how so few people in the industry seem to know or care about the what and the why of it all.

Honestly, is any one really surprised but these developments?  We don't live in an age where the majority of listeners care about sound quality ... Seriously, do you think that someone listening to Zep on Dre Beats cares what the source was?  Zep is a cash cow much like Pink Floyd, The Stones, etc.  The powers that be behind these bands, including their members, seldom show much deference to the quality.  I consider myself lucky owning a full set of Classics, some Japanese pressings, and a few others...  Once the reviews are out I will dip my toe into the water if favorable.  You can bet had they made the decision to go full Analog we'd already have heard instead of the current path.

I remember when the Classics first were released, the response was kind of meh. They aren't honoring the original sound. The UK Plums, though they weren't from the original matters, were rage best because the mastering engineer got it right. Etc.

I remember thinking how different the Classics were, sounding so dynamic, but also in your face as though you were only several feet away from the band. Very different from my UK originals.

2. Were the vinyl versions cut from the analog tapes or your hires masters?

2. Have to check with Warners re their campaign cant get them upset

I'm glad I found this post. I had bought a number of the recent Beatles pressings before researching. After comparing a couple of them with my old vinyl I chose to not even open the rest of them. Most are still sealed. Think I'll wait on this Zeppelin release. What a shame to pass such an awesome analog opportunity.

It will be interesting to see when or if and how this suggestion of a digital source is verified.  If it just remains a lingering suspicion and cannot be verified by the label or engineer, and is found to "sound digital" then I suppose the add copy will remain and the credibility of "anolog tapes" will continue to be diminished.  Many believe that it's already used dishonestly, or "unknowingly".  If it is verified will the dealers feel at all compelled to remove a false sales incentive once it's there?  If not, then their credibility wanes, while Micheal's sources become increasingly necessary.  Sorry to bash one of your sponsors and one of my favorite dealer/labels, but whoever writes that drivel that pretty much says the vinyl has already ready been heard (by who) and beats anything out there, must think were idiots.

 This is the price anolog lovers pay, or not, for the "vinyl renaissance".  For a late coming true believer it's tempting to spend $1,200 just prove my principles.  But that would only be hundred or more that I'd be denying a dishonest label.  Those Classics that I've been putting off we're pressed where?  Not the noisy, warped plant  I hope.  Oh, there they go!

it is very easy to find out whether a pressing is AAA (including the cutting) or not. Allways, when there is any hint of a doubt something in the chain was done digitally. If they can promote an analog chain without any doubt the companies will allways shout it at us. That tells us, at least they know it when they have done something truly right. Means also, their hide-and-seek game with non-AAA records is absolutely disgusting!

If these were all analog pressings, I'd probably jump for them, a full set. To see what Jimmy Page et al do and how they sound.

But digital, Nope. I will not be getting these. Certainly not at 96/24, which I assume these will be. 

If you have original Atlantics, or the Classic Records reissues of a few years back, it's just extra plastic on a shelf. Like the recent Beatles reissues which I also didn't get. Again, would have bought if they had been AAA. 

The Classic Records Led Zeppelin reissues are the ones that sound best to me. Except for Led Zeppelin II. Nobody seems to be able to beat Bob Ludwig at the peak of his game. 

The Rolling Stones 64-69 box set does sound very good indeed. But again, first, that was Bob Ludwig transferring to DSD, adding his magic. Then DSD has a nicer, smoother sound than 96/24 - in my opinion. Even if the finished product on vinyl was 176/24 PCM or whatever. Anyway, the box set sounds great. Very enjoyable. Until you put one of the box set LPs on, then right afterwards put on an original Decca. The Decca tops the reissue in virtually every case. Ok, Beggars Banquet sounds nicer at the correct speed, but you can use Feickerts iPhone app to get the Decca up to speed. 

Anyway, Led Zeppelin reissues, great! Digital at 96/24? Nope. 

You'd think that after the travesty of the initial run of Tom Waits albums and the way that re-issuing the set, cut directly from analogue master tapes turned a total mess into one of the finest reissue series from a mainstream label, that Warner would have learned a valuable lesson.

At least lets hope the jump to 24 bit is enough to carry these remasters, digitally sourced or not. Truth is that converters have come a long way since the catalog was last remastered in 1990.

<nt>

I just canceled my pre-order with amazon, am fed up with vinyl transfered this way. In 2014 it should become mandatory to label all vinyl issues or reissues for what they are. AAA should become a new standard.

Well, its not really a Zep lp unless seeds roll out of the gate fold when opening...

I guess they can't get that into the production line...

But really, it seems the best music always gets the worst reissue... Beatles etc. But then we did get some great Doors and CCR stuff. I guess as long as they keep the compressor out of the loop it will be a fun listen for someone without a clean AAA.

Ken

I wonder if they possiblly did the original transfer at 24-192 then cut the vinyl masters from the 192 and downsampled to 96 for the downloads, thus giving the vinyl buyer better quality sound? Kinda doubt it but you never know.  

Led Zeppelin is my favorite rock band of all time. To me, nobody comes close. But I think it's sad(?) that Jimmy Page doesn't do something new.  Prior to Zeppelin and during Zepprlin he was all about creative innovation.  Now, he seems to be reliving the 13 years or so Zeppelin was a band.  Robert  Plant has moved on, Page seems stuck in the past. 

...that none of this is confusing in any way!

I'm not buying.  For the mony being chargerd vinyl buyers lovers deserve the best AAA mastering and pressing possible.  For digital lovers how can 192/24 Blu-ray audio and download files not be available?

Just canceled my order. I'll wait to hear how they turn out before pulling the trigger. No need to rush in now that the source is seriously in question.
 

I'll wait for all analog issues from Quality Record Pressings. Just like the Doors box. I was suckered with the first vinyl box, then I repurchased them from QRP. These companies have made such a profit on all re-re-re issues, after every first release of all classic record albums. For what generation are they saving the original masters?

The Beatles (surviving) members and especially Stevie Wonder are holding the masters. Stevie couldn't be at the studios for MOFI and Audio Fidelity??? Who is he saving the masters for?? When he passes on from this Earth.For whom? I'm a baby boomer and  a large majority  alive at this time will never appreciate the music, as much as the people born in the  sixties and seventies.

First, young kids had their Walkman (tape) and then the great Apple IPod (digital) with mp3 inferior compressed sound. Then we Baby Boomers had to hear brick walled (Metallica: Death Magnetic)  masters. Why, so some people who don't live in their cars could hear it above the noise. I won't  keep giving away my hard earned money.

Movies for the people born in the 1930' and later want their memories on DVD/Blu- ray before the films rot forever. Why save the originals tapes/films for this and later generations, that won't care who Cary Grant or Bette Davis are???  It's all ready happening, (been happening, actually). 

I know I digressed. Original music masters and Movie masters are in the same bind right now. 

I'm headed to Amazon and  Elusive to cancel. Thanks for the honesty, Michael Fremer.

Looking forward Michael to your cover / assessment of these reissues; AND, when you get the time, the same with the new Fleetwood Mac 1969 - 1972 box set.  I have heard rumblings of a digital source on that project as well.

Mothership's mastering is terrible - compressed and brickwalled, and also from the 1990 digital transfers, which among other things were done in 16/44.1, not high-res. Stan Ricker's vinyl master for Mothership is better than the CD, but it's based on a poor source.

The new reissues are based on new digital transfers done at 24/192. So (for what it's worth), while the high-res digital downloads are offered at 24/96, the LPs can be cut from 24/192 masters.

The new reissues also are quite good - I love how folks say that "people whose opinions they trust" say they don't sound good. Listen for yourselves, for cryin' out loud!

That said, the digital versions have annoyed some because of their high-end prominence. But a better, more gentle-sounding high end is one of the things vinyl often delivers, so I would recommend against folks dismissing these LP issues before they've heard them. I've heard snippets from a couple of them, and they're very good indeed IMHO.

Finally, when is this "Mastered for iTunes is just for idiots listening on Beats headphones through iPods" BS going to stop? Mastered for iTunes is just a seet of lossy compression tools that help minimize, as much as possible, the degradation from the original lossless source. The underlying mastering is what's really important. The fact that the new Zep masters appeared first in lossy form on iTunes is perhaps unusual - but it doesn't tell us anything about the mastering itself.

To stir up some controversy :-)

Over 40 years after the fact. Who would have thought they would be reissued on LP record 40 years down the line. Who would have thought anyone would care. 

Who would have thought the reissue 40 years down the track would sound worse than the originals. Not that we've heard them, but that is the way it's looking. Was certainly the case with the Beatles. 

Price of the Classic Records Led Zep went up $75 this week at Acoustic Sounds.I wonder why?

Just to put another perspective on this. Warner may think they are on a roll with digitally sourced vinyl after the mid period Fleetwood Mac releases and Eagles box. These actually sound pretty close to or even better than original AAA pressings. As a result one can't write off these new Zep reissues. Also may be worth buying in the deluxe format for the additional live and studio tracks. It's disappointing though as Warner have release a bunch of excellent AAA vinyl reissues from lesser artists (in terns of sales). I think this is for convenience with the simultaneous release of vinyl CD and deluxe/ super deluxe sets. I think Classic Records are still going to be my go to copies though.

I was pretty excited about the news they were going to reissue these records, then I read they might be doing the reissue a little half-assed. I went back and tried to listen to my who knows what pressing of Zeppelin II and III and thought they sounded really bad. I pulled out my 2nd copy of Zeppelin I Classic records and gave it a spin. I said 2nd copy because my first copy I dropped on the turntable and side 2 has a devastating scratch! This happened a few years ago and I was shocked how much these jumped in price. It was one of the first records I ever bought from Acoustic Sounds and it was 29.99 I believe. I thought that was really expensive but I should have bought the whole set! Anyway I listened to my second copy and it sounds so amazing that it breaks my heart to see the pressings going for $299.00. Come on Jimmy I hope you deliver on these reissues, I don't care what the source is if it even touches the tip of the Classic Records pressings I'll be extremely happy.

Heartbreaker your time has come I can't take your evil ways.

Question for those who have heard the other Classic Zep reissues... Where does Zeppelin I fall in sound quality compared to the rest of the Zep Classic reissues?

I have owned two copies of Led Zeppelin, one Led Zeppelin II, and Presence. I also bought a few of the Jimmy Page remastered CDs. To me, they all sound like crap. Distant sound, like I am listening from out in the street. Can barely hear the drums. Totally Snoozeville. I just don't understand how the band's popularity managed to survive the poor quality of their studio releases. I never realized how good they actually were until I bought the 'The Song Remains the Same' on DVD.

I continue to be astouneded that the label doesn't want the buying public to know the full story of the sources used, the methodology employed nor the reasoning behind any of it. The level of paranoia and control is curious at best and insanely shortsighted at worst.

But I'll say this much: Nothing beats the Internet for information-sharing, and it's not as if the sound quality won't ultimately be discussed, regardless.

When Accoustic Sounds bought Classic Records, would they have retained the lacquers and/or stampers used to make the 45 RPM Led Zeppelin vinyl? 

Also, would they have to obtain the rights to make new pressings?

When Accoustic Sounds bought Classic Records, would they have retained the lacquers and/or stampers used to make the 45 RPM Led Zeppelin vinyl? 

Also, would they have to obtain the rights to make new pressings?

Well, I have also changed my mind on AAD.  The recent PF, Beatles (Abbey Road) and especially The Who's Quadrophenia have convinced me that if it's done correctly, the AAD process can produce a vinyl record that is spectacular sounding.  I've also bought the Tori Amos Under the Pink (MOV) reissue and it's pretty amazing (no doubt it's probably a DDD affair).

I've pre-ordered all three LZ releases (deluxe vinyl) and I'm sure that they will be pretty damm good.  If I'd known about the Classics and I'd not been a poor student, I'd have bought those.  But in any case, here's fingers crossed!

I understand that we're talking digital vs. analog mastering to vinyl here, but let me say that every single Beatles remaster to CD has been disappointing (or worse) compared to the best-pressed Parlophone, Capitol, and Apple mono or stereo LPs.  No 1960s Stones CD remaster has cut the best Decca or London vintage LPs.  If it's so hard to get two guitars, bass, and drums in four-track right on CD - what hope is there for any digitally mastered Zeppelin on vinyl?  I wouldn't trust it with one guitar.

Corporations fret about illegal CD downloading, when - psychologically - they created that anti-market themselves.  Get people used to compressed crap sound, and they'll take it for free instead of paying you for better.

Back to our regularly scheduled topic....

Not about quality of sound but for anyone interested in these re-issues:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01xrydj

Well, I'll hold out with a variety of pressings at hand until, either I'm in the dirt with Bonzo (RIP), etc OR Chad and his fine crew gets a shot at doing this catalog AAA and truly "Deluxe". (realizing, AAD could be fine) The industry has gotten enough of my hard earned money for doing half-baked attempts at what is rapidly becoming (because of sites like Analog Planet) common knowledge of what it takes to do it "right". I don't believe there is any misunderstanding here, I would be overjoyed to eat crow pie here but....

Hmmm, In 1972 I saw the Zep live for $6.50, boy, that kind of value is long gone.

Truly look forward to your review of these pressings Mikey (valuable as always) but, I'm just incapable of holding my breathe for the lukewarm, mixed results that I think we can reasonably anticipate...

And those younger and often far less knowing, criticize us for being curmudgeons... Geez!

Happy (regardless) Listening!

The vinyls are remastered from 24 bits 192khz digital masters, This should end the speculation. hopefully they did a good job in transferring.
quote from the band's official website: Technical note: The new remasters were created from 192 kHz/24 bit digital transfers of the original analogue tapes. The catalogue is being remastered now to take advantage of the significant advances in mastering technology that have occurred since 1991. http://www.ledzeppelin.com/news/2014/03/13/first-three-albums-newly-rema...

"...Page didn't play any of the album cuts, but assured the crowd that they were each treated with tender loving care and mixed to suit the particular listening needs of all of today’s music-loving fans."

from https://music.yahoo.com/blogs/music-news/jimmy-page-previews-eight-previ...

Hmmm, I wonder what that is supposed to mean. My particular needs are for a RL RL Sterling Led Zep II. Anyone? Anyone?

after listening to the expanded lp's of zep 1 & 2 (3 not available yet), I must say that I'm stunned by the quality of sound. Bass is tight and slammin. Robert's voice soars, as do the riffs. Much better than I anticipated! I can't wait to hear (read) the comparisons to classic and rl pressings. If this is what 96/124 sounds like on vinyl, then play on!! C'mon Michaell, where's the official review?

Looking forward to Mike's take as well as some others around here. Really would be thrilled if these end up sounding good.

Any idea when you'll be reviewing these new reissues Michael?

"what would you rather have: AAA vinyl and not "deluxe" packaging or AAD vinyl and "deluxe" packaging?"

I would have thought a competent writer would know there is no such thing as AAD on vinyl. The LZ reissues on vinyl are ADA.

As for personal preference, I would prefer best result over best philosophy any day; I am pragmatic and not prejudiced in these matters. Your decision to damn the process without having heard the result is the very definition of prejudice, yes, no?

Were all the Classic re-issues pressed at the same plant? A comment made in one of the posts made me wonder. How can I tell which plant the Classics I have were pressed?
I've got thousands invested in my gear but I don't think I've come close to the sound of LZ IV I heard on my uncle's stereo in 1974. Stanton EEE cartidge, Thorens turntable, rectilinear speakers and I don't remember the amplification. What a glorious sound!

Hey Michael,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't the George Marino/Sterling sound EPIC 2003 AC/DC reissues done the same way? Why are those better?

I can't find much information on the AC/DC stuff other than it was remastered at SS by George Marino.

Any info would be great. Thanks.