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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9pCIxeiOuIA

Mike, nice segment.

As a rebuttal to Jerome's comment above, one should consider the segment was devoted to a comparison between vinyl and MP3. When CD's were mentioned as a sidebar, Mike stated CORRECTLY that vinyl has wider bandwidth than CDs. Cds are inherently bandwidth limited (20hz to 20khz). Vinyl has no inherent bandwidth limitation. This is fact.

Now that's not the WHOLE story on the cd vs vinyl topic, and Mike even mentioned tradeoffs vis a vis noise, etc, but all of it was as a side comment to the MAIN topic.

Jerome's accusatory tone ("facts not conjecture") gives the appearance of someone eager to "debunk" a vinyl advocate's opinion -- so eager, in fact, that he's willing to ignore the fact that the topic had nothing principally to do with compact discs.

Vinyl itself may have a bandwidth beyond the 20+ KHz CDs can handle, but it's certainly not infinite. Further, all phono cartridges have a physical limit beyond which they can't vibrate any faster, and that's usually accompanied by ringing that is far worse than the artifacts from a digital filter. But nobody can hear frequencies higher than what CDs accommodate, so who cares? CDs have vastly lower distortion than vinyl - literally 2 or 3 orders of magnitude less - and the frequency range they do accommodate is ruler flat. The background noise of CDs is 30 dB softer than even the best vinyl, and CDs don't suffer from limited channel separation that narrows imaging. And there's no quality difference between the inner and outer "grooves." CDs also have excellent speed accuracy, and no wow, compared to vinyl that is audibly deficient. Nor do CDs have clicks and pops, unless you scratch them up so severely they can't play. CDs also don't degrade every time you play them as vinyl does. Really, this obsession with vinyl makes no sense in the 21st century. Anyone who thinks vinyl has higher fidelity or more realism than CDs is very ignorant about science! I know this video is about MP3s versus vinyl, but a high bit-rate MP3 file is indistinguishable from a CD, so all the same facts apply. MP3 kills vinyl every day of the week, and it's amazing that anyone could think otherwise. Especially anyone who considers themselves an audiophile and claims that fidelity is important to them.

I can understand the vinyl vs. cd discussion but, to say MP3 kills vinyl every day of the week is complete nonsense. MP3 being a compressd format is even lesser quality than CD. When an MP3 file is created, the absolute best file you could hope for is an exact replica of the source used to create the file. MP3s are OFTEN created at a lower bandwith than the source to conserve space. MP3s are alot of small snapshots of the original source material. There is missing information in the MP3 file. How do you think it takes up less space than the original file used to create it. There is also missing information in the CD as well. A cd is made at 44.1khz. This is taking 44,100 small snapshots per second of the original master signal. If you make an MP3 of this 44.1khz file, the best you will be able to achieve is 16bit/44.1khz. Even if you create your file at 192khz you still have 192,000 snapshots of the 44.1khz original file. the information that is inbetween those so called snap shots is missing. Can the human ear detect this? maybe or maybe not. I will agree that CD does have a lower noise floor but, this really isn't an issue for me as my vinyl system is dead quiet at my regular listening levels anyway. If I crank the voulume all the way to max, I can hear a bit of tube hiss if I have my ear next to the tweeter. Then again, I don't listen at ear bleeding levels. Also, Clicks and pops in vinyl are the fault of the user. It is not inherent to the format. Keep your vinyl in good shape and clean then you won't have this problem. I don't have clicks or pops in my pressings. I think Vinyl vs. SACD is a better discussion to be had. MP3 doesn't even come into the picture.

I will just say if I thought CD's or MP3s sounded better than vinyl, I would be paying money for those instead.

From your comments, it sounds like you have had a bad experience with vinyl. What type of turntable and other gear have you used for vinyl playback? Are you possibly listening to used records? Have you ever checked out any of the blue note releases from analogue productions?

Andy

Jerome,

                You can buy CDs and I will Buy LPs. I would really like to know what your background is with the vinyl medium. The reason why I asked earlier about the used LP's isn't about the longevity of the LP. I was asking because from the very negative comments on the vinyl medium and LP playback, it sounds like the OP has been listening to scratched, warped or dirty LPs from a used record store. I will not deny the fact that vinyl does degrade over years and years of playback. Guess what, so do CDs. The CD doesn't even need to be played to degrade over time. It does it all by itself. There have been studies done that warn against archiving vital information on any type of optical disk. Many discussions I have read state that the pressed factory CD WILL become damaged at some point in time because the storage layer will oxidize and become un-readable. The plastic may also become opaque over time and render the CD useless. Some state a life span of 20 - 30yrs by having examples of that age that have become unreadable. This is factory pressed CDs I am talking about. The CD-R is even worse. Typical lifespan of a CD-R is less than 10 yrs. Don't take my word for it, just look up the studies done by IBM. They might know a little bit about the optical storage medium. I personally have some CD-R that have become unreadable in about 5yrs. I started a whole collection of burned DVD's in college and very few of them play now. All less than 10yrs old. Neither CD or vinyl is a perfect medium and both degrade over time. I have some mono jazz LPs that are over 50 yrs old. Still play very well. I did purchase these used as I was not born when they were made. I purchased them mint condition and cleaned them properly and they still play great. None of them have degraded to the point of sounding bad. Quite the contrary actually. Vinyl has proven to have a long shelf life. Vinyl is an inert medium. It cannot oxidize or turn hazy over time like a CD will. This is another reason why I like vinyl, because of the archival ability.

These questions are for both jerome and joe. What equipment have you used in the past for vinyl playback that has left you with such a bad impression of vinyl? Do you guys own a turntable at this time? If so, What model table do you own. I am just asking because I am having a hard time understanding how someone can dislike vinyl as much as you two guys seem to.

I will also have to disagree with your point in the post above. If your turntable is setup correctly and with todays modern cartridges tracking at such a low VTF, the LP can sound just as good on the 200th play as the very first. This is assuming the owner takes care of his records.

You also state that the LP is obsolete. To a certain extent I would agree. I would say it is more niche than obsolete.The main reason the CD overtook the LP wasn't because it is greatly superior to the LP sonically. It was because of convenience. It was convenient to be able to skip tracks easily, fast forward and rewind. It was convenient for them to be small and portable. The fact is that LP's are on the rise. Almost all artist are releasing new music on LP's as well as CD and SACD. If the LP is so terrible I wonder why people still buy it. I will confess that I own quite a few CDs as well. Who doesn't these days. That's just fine. Someone can own CDs and LPs at the same time and enjoy both of them.

Steve Jobs developed the Ipod. You might have heard of him. He was a front runner and leader in the digital music field. When he was at home, he listened to vinyl. Hmmmm..... Makes you wonder why a man with unlimited means and vast knowledge of digital music technology would chose to do so.

I have read several of these dialogues in several different places now, and I worry that the music is getting lost in the argument. I have lots of CDs. I also have lots of records. Recently, I have been hitting some of my favorite music stores around the country (planet records in Boston, Louisiana music factory in new Orleans, amoeba in San Francisco, jerry's in pittsburgh, etc) and, instead of spending time in the used CD sections, have instead been wandering through the old vinyl. What I have been finding there are treasures that never made it to CD. Stuff like Sonny's Back by Sonny Stitt, Easy Like by Billy Taylor, old George Shearing stuff, and the like. I have been pleasantly surprised at how resilient these old records are and how good they sound after a good cleaning, even on my cheap old Denon turntable. But the real point is that these are great performances by great artists that never made it to commercial digital and probably never will. So for me, i'm gonna keep my CDs, keep my vinyl, and continue on my quest for great performances, regardless of the format they are on. It's all about the music, in my opinion.... Thanks for considering these two cents' worth.

I like your outlook on this coltrane. You make a good point. It needs to be more about the music not what format someone enjoys it on.

In response to the anti-vinyl posts.

a: Frequency Response debate: Redbook CD at 16bit 44.1Khz has a frequency response of 20Hz to 22.05Khz and not  1 KHz above that. It's brick walled. Vinyl has no such limitations. Vinyl can produce bass below 20Hz and can  go  well above 30Khz typically. Only the junkiest phono cartridges cannot  go above 20Khz. Most even modest say  $100-$200 cartridges   can be measured to reach up to 30Khz or more. Now most adults cannot hear above 20Khz so the  ultimate debate is that both CD and vinyl can reproduce all  hearing frequencies. Many humans can sense overtones into the 20Khz+ range even if  they cannot  directly hear it. But the frequency response argument is moot. Vinyl has no trouble matching  and exceeding 16bit digital audio.

b: Dynamic range: The ballyhoo hallmark of  digitial supporters. In theory 16 bit digital can  give you a dynamic range of 96db. BUT! you will find no recorded music that will have 96db of dynamic range engineered into it. It's not saleble to the public and I'll tell you all why. The typical home has a general background noise of about 30db. It's near inescapable in modern  living. If a CD had  full 96db dynamic range, the quietest notes would have to overcome the 30db typical room background noise or such sounds would be buried in room noise. That  then means the loudest signals would  play at 126db typically. 30db room noise + 96db signal on disc = 126db. That will  make you very unwelcome  by your spouse/family and likely your neighbours too. So sound engineers compress the widest range recorded music to a  useable level. Most pop/rock music will by its nature only have at best 20-30db of dynamic range,  jazz and  such maybe 30-40 db, classical music will be engineered limited to only  60-70db typically  as   a full ensemble would overwhelm even 96 db range of a CD but again would be too loud at volum peaks in normal listening.

So vinyl gives you at worst 60db of dynamic range and the best pressings maybe up to 80db. Both CD and Vinyl more than cover  the music typically recorded and by engineering can cover even recorded classical music.

The dynamic range debate is again MOOT!

c: Stereo Separation: 16 bit digital can give you up to 90db of separation. WONDERFULL! But it only takes on average 20 db of separation   for the human  brain to  separate left from right stereo channel sound. 30db-40db-60db-90db  will make NO AUDIBLE DIFFERENCE! A good phono catridge will typically  give you 25-30 db of separation. So the debate is again moot. We can't hear the difference.

d: Distortion: At normal listening levels the 16 bit digital audio will measure distortion below .05% GREAT! Vinyl may vary on areas and at best may give less than .25% to 1% distortion. OH MY GOD HOW TERRIBLE!!! Yep,  but  most humans cannot  detect  distortion below 3%. Golden ears maybe   as low as 1% so  again it matters not as   typically we cant hear  distortion in either set up. LOW LEVEL DISTORTION of  digital  can be   very high 3-5-10% or so though.

e: Wow & Flutter: Yep CD's measure below .001% wrms  STUNNING! A  typical turntable may be from .05-.1% wrms. Better turntables can be   down to  below .02% wrms. Oh no, it looks bad for the good ole vinyl disc playback here. But again   good old human beings, guess what most cannot detect wow & flutter  until it's above .1% wrms typically and only golden ears can  detect a w&f of as low as .05%wrms. So another bubble burst, w&f is not a problen as long as the turntable is  made well  and operates  properly.

So technicaly both mediums   are able to better  all areas of sound. But to those who  live to slam  vinyl. YOU ALL NEED TO HEAR A GOOD TURNTABLE SET UP! Spin a  good LP and  you WILL be blown away! You will hear as to why a   well made LP will tyically sound better than the CD version. JUST SHUT UP, find a  good vinyl  set up and  listen ok?

My audio set up is not even close to what  Michael Fremmer runs here. I don't own a what $80,000+ turntable for one. I run a Rega P3-24 with the outboard PSU, a Denon DL-110 cartridge playing through a Cambridge Audio 640p phono preamp. My system  uses a  higher end Onkyo AVR  feeding into an Anthem PVA series power amp and  my main  speakers are Paradigm Studio 20v4. I do have a proper room set up with  suitable room treatments and  DAMMIT  my system sounds  good on vinyl. Just finished playing a newly purchased Dianna Krall, Very Best Of  double LP and  OMG! it sounds great. Virtually no pops or clicks  and   almost as quiet   groove noise as CD would be between tracks.

I'm not anti-CD I have an Oppo BDP-83 digital disc player and  I have some very nice CD's. In most every cases  where I have the LP and CD versions, the LP sounds better.

As to Hi-Rez digital, great, but  a tiny catalogue. Only a few thosand titles ever made on DVD-A and SACD  and  even less Hi-rez downloads. CD's are the digital standard  and will be for a while to come. A few million  titles on CD globally over the last 30 years. Vinyl though is said to have  over 100 million titles made over the years globally and   that will not be rivaled   for a long time if at all.

OH YEAH one more thing. LP's are  tougher than one thinks   they do not wear out after each play. Vinyl is  like mollasses and  as the stylus  plays the groove  will spring back   to   its original shape   after the stylus traces it. I recall reading  decades ago   about a test  done on vinyl  where the LP used was played  repeatedly without resting over 100 times. The  vinyl was measured  after the first play and then  after the 100th. The measurment gear showed a very slight  wear BUT was  deemed inaudible! Nobody would play  the same LP 100 times in a row   without a rest between plays. Infact  most  people will likey not play the same copy of an LP 100 times in a lifetime, unless you only  had a handfull of LP's. I'd guess over  the years my most played LP maybe has been played 30 times over say 25+ years.

 Finally even if 24bit/96Khz or better digital sounds as good as good vinyl (debateable but most audiophiles will generally accept this). The beautiful  large cover art, liner notes and the  ritual of pulling out an LP and playing it in peace for the next 20 min. or so before having to change sides  cannot be matched with any other format.

Stand still,

I run a similar setup to yours. I have a VPI classic 1 that is upgraded with terrastone footers and sat upon a custom terrastone plinth. It has a soundsmith boheme cart that feeds a rogue audio ares tube phono. Then onto an onkyo processor and finally my 250wpc rotel amp. My speakers are B&W 804 diamonds on brass spikes sat upon granite slabs. When I replaced my stock footers and mounted the turntable on the terrastone plinth, my noise floor dropped significantly. My system was pretty quiet to begin with. The noise dampening ability of the terrastone footers and plinth combination have made it virtually silent. Only at max volume can you detect any bit of audible noise. This is at MAX volume. You cant sit in the same room with these speakers running at full volume so it doesn't matter if it has a small amount of noise at that level. In short, I have invested a pretty good amount of time and money making sure everything is setup properly as to turntable setup, noise dampning, cart alignment, speaker setup and room acoustics. The results of this are a very quiet vinyl playback system. The background is black. You cant detect goove noise, tube hiss, or motor noise at listening levels. You can't even detect it at well above listening levels. It only appears at FULL MAX volume. My system sounds great. I also own an oppo BDP-93. It is a universal disc player that plays CD as well as SACD. The background noise of this player vs. my turntable is a very slight difference at max volume.

My point is, if you have a nice turntable that is setup correctly and you have taken measures to reduce noise, you can get black backgrounds. The noise that is present becomes undetectable. Switching back and forth from the turntable to the OPPO player has the same noise level when listening to music in my system. I worked hard to achieve this and it sounds damn good. Only on the quietest of music passages does the oppo win here.

As far as speed stability, VPI quotes speed stibility on par with a master tape. I have no reason to doubt this as I have never been able to detect any speed fluctuations. I use an AC power regenerator to feed my equipment a perfect, stable 60hz/120v power supply. With no fluctuations in power, the speed stability is rock solid.

VPI quotes the wow and flutter on the classic to be less than .02% Again, this level is undetectable during listening. I challenge anyone to hear .02% W&F. You just cant hear it.

Before you guys slam vinyl, get a turntable that is setup correctly and cartridge aligned properly. Then get a brand new pressing that is clean and give it a listen. Check out some of the stuff from analogue productions, MOFI or speakers corner. I think you will be very surprised by what you hear. People are surprised at my house all the time when visiting and hear my music. I don't tell them what the source is and then they see the turntable spinning and say WOW! that is a record. What great sound. Then they want to go through my collection and listen to several more titles. I have never seen anyone be this enthused about a CD before. Just give it a chance guys. I will say it is harder to setup a turntable and make sure all the variables are correct. There are many steps you must do properly to achieve great LP playback. It is alot different than just plugging in your CD player and pressing the play button. Once you spend the time to make sure your turntable is setup correctly, The results are worth it.

Are we really still having this boring old argument?  To each his own, already!

That said, why does it seem that the "if you can't measure it, it doesn't exist" crowd is almost invariably rude and condescending, along the lines of "Haven't you heard of SCIENCE, you morons?"  The "let your ears" decide bunch generally seems much more polite.  It also seems that the science types never tell you what they've listened to and how they've done it.

Is this somehow related to when Gary and John came over your place with the camera crew, or is that piece still forthcoming?  Hate to think they didn't use any of it, was looking forward to it.

Another thought about the guys slaming vinyl here. The site is called  Analog Planet, so why are  anti-analog guys even bothering to post here?  Maybe just to be snively lil trolls.

Anyone who stops by this website should surely know it's going to be analog audio based. If you  don't get the analog sound or like vinyl then please just move on.

LOL, about Digital Video,

Your comparisn is crazy. NTSC analogue video is a 1939 era design  that was   rather low rez and later upon colour t.v. a lower colour fidelity. Sure it was  good enough for  like 70 years. But digital or more precisely HDTV was by design a hi-rez format. BTW originally analogue in the 80's and 90's as used by Japan t.v. for those years. Digitizing it  only made  it less costly to further develop and thus sell to a wider consumer base.

Vinyl playback, unlike  NTSC  video  was a hi-rez anlogue format and thus has enjoyed many decades of  high quality audio  playback.  The only  digital fomats that  can  be remotely argued to give  similar  or as such superlative playback are hi-rez such as SACD and DVD-A.  MP3 at the best bit rate is  still miles behind quality vinyl playback. CD audio is  for the masses   a  quality hi-fi format and I have nothing against CD but that   in almost every case where I have the CD and LP versions the LP  sounds better and is  just more cool, beautiful to view as cover art  and for audio fans more  fun.

Hi-rez digital audio as I said earlier has a tiny global catalogue of choices, maybe a few thousand titles.  Vinyl records have   as many  believe to be over 100 million titles  globally to choose from  produced over the years. THAT HAS VALUE BUDDY!

So your  crazy analog video  vs HDTV     to   analogue audio vs digital is  as I said  crazy and  also pointless.

Jerome

           You must have purchased all your vinyl from a yard sale or something. If all you hear is snap, crackle and pops, you clearly have an issue with your quality of pressings. Like I said before, none of my new or mint conditon vinyl has a SINGLE pop,crackle or snap. I know I am wasting my time debating this matter any furthur. You are not going to "convert" anyone over to CD land. You act like we all need to burn our vinyl and go out and buy CD's. How come we can't just own both and be happy about it. I prefer vinyl and you prefer CD. That's great. Let's leave it at that and quit arguing about it. You do know the name of this site is ANALOG planet don't you? This is not digital land. You might want to find a different forum.............

Jerry, I mean Jerome (I wouldn't want to be a dick and continue to intentionally misspell someone's name -- that would be, well, dick-ish). So why does a guy who appears to abhor vinyl drop $2800 on a table (not to mention spend so much time on this site). As for vinyl noise, I agree with other commentors - you are either not cleaning your lps or you're hitting the dollar bins.

Jerome, I'll gladly take those crappy lps off your hands. Say 10 cents a piece. Not only that but I'll trade ya 2 old cd players for your VPI turn table. We both know they sound better so why would ya want to hang on to it?

Jerome you go ahead and listen to RHCP's "Stadium Arcadium" on CD mastered by Vlado Meller with a pitiful average dynamic range of 3dB, I'll listen to the 4LP 180g virgin vinyl mastered all analogue from the original master tapes by Steve Hoffman with average dynamic range of 13dB.

Music without dynamics sucks. Is that the fault of the CD? No, but there's another thing to consider...if the LP is a totally different master and it's pressed whisper quiet like pressings coming from Pallas, RTI and QRP to name a few...then even the .mp3's coming from that CD will sound like crap.

I love vinyl, but if the master sucks and there's a good CD out I'll buy the CD. It's rare these days, but occasionally it could happen. The new Dave Matthews Band album for example, cut from the 16/44.1 redbook CD files, so no point in buying the vinyl. If the best mastering is on Blu-ray Audio, or DVD-Audio, or Super Audio CD, I'm capable of playing that too.

Why would someone join a website devoted to vinyl just to bash vinyl? What's the point?

I'll challenge any anti-vinyl guy to come over to my place with a reissue cd of Miles Davis' "Round Midnight," and compare it with my 56 year old vinyl copy. 

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I had a Wadia 860 feeding a Wadia 27ix DAC.  Just for giggles one day an audiophile friend of mine and I hooked up my old B&O tx turntable to do a quick a/b.  Supertramp breakfast in america.  My 20k digital front end sounded like shit compared to my old 50 dollar p.o.s. table.  There shouldn't be an arguement over digital vs. vinyl because anybody with a brain stem and a good pair of ears could hear the difference instantly, it's that much better!